5.33 Power Struggles with Katherine Sellery

Power struggles can make you feel powerless, frustrated and hopeless as a parent. But today's guest is here to offer guidance and hope! (And she even challenges me a little bit on my own parenting.)

Katherine Sellery is a three-time TEDx speaker, an Amazon Best-Selling author and founder of the Conscious Parenting Revolution. She is a trusted voice for parents seeking to create more connected, respectful, and empowered relationships with their kids. With over two decades of experience teaching tools that build trust and dismantle power struggles, Katherine is here to shift the conversation around how we communicate with our kids. She’s also a mom to two kids. 

You can learn more about Katherine at https://consciousparentingrevolution.com/  and get her FREE book here!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

I'm Kitty Aki. I'm a mom of three, and I'm a good mom, but I'm always learning and growing, and I bet you are too. So join me on my mission to learn from moms from all walks of life because let's be honest, momming is way more fun when we do it together. Welcome to the Dead Mother Podcast. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Dead Mother Podcast. I can't believe we're getting so close to the end of season five, you guys, and we still have a couple of really good episodes to come, so stay tuned. Today's is a very important one because it's one that we all struggle with. Power struggles. This is such a hot topic. So let me introduce the guest and then we'll get right into the episode. Catherine Sellery is a three-time TEDx speaker, an Amazon best-selling author, and founder of the Conscious Parenting Revolution. She's a trusted voice for parents seeking to create more connected, respectful, and empowered relationships with their kids. With over two decades of experience teaching tools that build trust and dismantle power struggles, Catherine is here to shift the conversation around how we communicate with our kids. And oh yeah, she's also a mom to two kids. Hi, Catherine. How are you? Great. How are you? It's so lovely to be here. I appreciate the invitation. Oh, I'm glad to talk to you. I feel like this is such a powerful topic. And it's one that a lot of parents, I think, feel very helpless about. Like once you're in it, is there any way to get out of it and all this? So I'm so excited about that. But before we dive in, I want to hear about your motherhood journey. What was it like for you becoming a mom?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yeah, well, you know, we had um about a four and a half year gap between child one and child two. And child one was so easy, such a dream child that you think you're a good mom because you won the lottery and you got this really easy baby. So it's like let's do it again. I'm looking at other moms and I'm thinking, God, what is wrong with them? You know, very holier than now, and you see these kids acting up and all the rest of it. And then I got number two. And that's when I realized, whoa, you know what? You get what you get. Yeah. And sometimes you get this really easygoing belonger, and sometimes you get this really strong, willed, autonomous child. And what it takes to parent them is so different.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah. So that was my journey to this um this lifetime of parenting support.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

So let me, okay, tell me how, and it sounds like with number two, it was an issue, but how prevalent were power struggles in your own parenting journey?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Um, well, I would say that in my family, it was a totally, you know, do as you're told family. So there was either a lot of struggles or you just did whatever you were told to do.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

You can see.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

So I was actually the one who, which is shocking to me, I still can't believe it. I was the, I was the good girl. I was the one who just did whatever I was told. I didn't take the power structure on um other people in the family did that. And of course, they paid a really high price for it. And now I look back and see it with such different eyes. But at the time, I thought, why are you making them so upset? You know, why are you upsetting them? Um, and uh I just thought I think it takes so much strength for kids to push back.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

Yeah. So much strength. Yeah. This this is a really interesting point because I feel like when you had that kind of upbringing yourself where it's like, fall in line, don't ask questions. Power struggles can be even more intimidating because you're like, why are they not respecting me? What's wrong with them? Have you found that to be the case in your own work?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

I think that um for myself, it was it was more of a um just just humbling experience.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Like realize how little motherhood. Yeah, I mean, just how little power we have to ever make anyone do as they're told. I mean, without really having to create a big power differential, which I did see in my family of origin. And I just wasn't comfortable to do that. So I I wasn't willing to go there.

unknown 4:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Um, and that was probably the steam behind my own drive to find another paradigm.

SPEAKER_02 5:00

Yeah. Okay. So tell me when did that shift happen? And when did you decide I'm gonna start learning about parenting and coaching and teaching parents?

SPEAKER_00 5:10

Yeah, when I started out, it was just all about me. It was just trying to find something that worked for me. It didn't even cross my mind that I was gonna, you know, turn into a parenting coach. It wasn't the objective. The objective was to just find a paradigm that worked, that didn't involve that real use of power control, rewards, punishments, shame. Any of the guilt. Yeah, exactly. So um, my son was about um, I don't know, let's see. He was, he was probably two, he's 31 now. So it's 29 years ago, I guess. And it wasn't that he ever really had the terrible twos. Like I said, he was such a sweet person from the day he was born. It was just that there were things that needed to be addressed. There were problems that were arising, there were conflicts that needed to be resolved, and I didn't have a paradigm that I was comfortable with. And so we were kind of just my husband and I, both deer in headlights, looking at, well, what do we do about this? Um, and there happened to be where he was at a little play group, there was a sign on the wall for a parenting course. Um, and I worked and he worked, and so it was a night class with other working parents, and it changed our lives. Oh, wow. It literally changed our lives.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

Um, what kind of stuck with you from that?

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Yeah, well, it was based on Thomas Gordon's um parenting program, and the woman who ran it had, I think she had like five kids, and she was a really proficient coach. She'd been doing it for a long time. But the um, I would say the bulk of any parenting program is based on Gordon's original material. Wow. Anyone that differs from a power over paradigm. Yeah. So Gordon was the one who came up with the three R's retaliation, rebellion, and resistance, that I've spent my life really understanding. And so I actually call on that research all the time that when you use power over, you activate this response out of someone. If you plant that seed, you get that harvest. Yes. And helping parents to connect this harvest to their approach is the job. Because they often become so disconnected from the idea that this is this is the return flow of something that they generated.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

Yes, a hundred percent. So tell me, I have a feeling that 100% of moms understand the minute you say power struggle. But for maybe that rare unicorn who doesn't, can you walk us through what a typical power struggle would look like?

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So you say to your child to um, you know, could you pick everything up off the table? Uh, we're getting ready for dinner, and I need you to put everything away. And they don't even move the finger. And that triggers your button right there. And you think, was I not clear? You know, I thought it was a request. Um, and they are completely unfazed.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

I love that you use that example because it can oftentimes you think of it as a screaming match, or it, but it can be that simple where it's like, this tiny thing, they're not listening, they're not respecting my authority. So tell me, I've I've noticed a big shift with connection. And when my kids feel connected, they're much more apt to respond in a kind way, to listen more quickly and attentively, um, to not react like you were saying with that seed that's planted of animosity or anger or resentment. Um, so tell me A, how important is connection in this process? And B, I forgot my B, but yeah, how important is it in this process?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

So A is it is truly, I mean, in the trainings that I run, we talk about um connection before correction. So everything starts with connection. If your kids, like you said, there's, I mean, I can I can just back it up a little bit and say that if we look at the different types of events that occur during the day, we have the time of the day when we are rushing to get the kids out of the house or rushing to get them to bed or to get dinner on the table or to get the homework done. And all of these times are the most likely to be where the conflicts happen is in this time when we're rushing to get something done and get on to the next. So the things that affect that time the most have to do with two other factors. How well am I taking care of myself? Do I feel well rested? Am I nourishing myself? Am I feeling like I have resourced with my own friend group and my partner and my own parents? And, you know, work is good. I mean, how well am I handling my world and how well am I taking care of me? And the other one is am I putting time aside every single day to do something purely out of joy, fun, and um connection with each and every one of my children one-on-one? And there is a rule of thumb, 20 minutes a day per child, one-on-one, child-directed connecting time to just hang out, go for a walk, play, do whatever. Grab a cup of tea, go for ice cream, whatever. As long as the child wants to do it, they're excited about it, and presumably, and hopefully, you've given them the opportunity to take the lead and decide what you're going to do together. It's not time to be lecturing them on any subject whatsoever. You leave all that behind. And if you're doing that every day, you do build up a reservoir of good energy between you. And if that reservoir goes dry, it affects how you problem solve in that active zone when everything is under pressure.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

Wow, this is powerful, Catherine. One, because I don't think that we often take the time to connect how we are internally to how we are parenting. And so many times it's either circumstance or our own needs are not being met. And it comes out as frustration, anger, like overwhelm. We're at our boiling point already. And a lot of times I have to remind myself they're good kids, they listen. And so it's like, am I okay? Is the situation? And obviously, we're all great parents when there's time and space and all of that. But how do you implement that when you're rushing, when there's no time, when you've got to go, go, go? What are do you have any strategies for when the circumstance is kind of dictating the emotions?

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Well, we start with an ounce of prevention. I think that's our first sort of like go-to is what can I do to create the structure in my life to take care of myself so that I have more bandwidth?

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yes, bandwidth.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

To be able to deal with the less than perfect moments in my life with a certain degree of, I don't know, just lightness about it. With a certain degree of putting, keeping everything in proportion. You know, it's not going to be the end of the world if they get to bed a little bit late. It's not the end of the world if they get to school late. It's not the end of the world if they miss the bus. I mean, none of these things are the end of the world. They are an inconvenience. Yes. They're also an opportunity for uh transformation. It's around this idea of you know, taking on the paradigm that uh father knows best, mother knows best, taking on the paradigm that if you don't do this, this is what I'm gonna do to you. Right? The threats, the rewards, the punishments, anything that hints at um I will make you change your behavior because I have the power to make you bend to my will.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

So that's the whole game right there is what is your theory of change when it comes to behavior with any group of people?

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah, that's the crux of it. I love that you use the word transformation because we talk about this on this show all the time. Those imperfect moments are the moments. Like, that's when you get to teach. That's when you get to show how am I going to handle this situation? These are when growth happens. And a lot of times we're like, oh, this is going wrong. This messed up my plans. But it's teaching those, our kids when they're watching mommy and they're like, okay, she's stressed, we don't have time, and this is how she handles it, versus um glossing over those moments, you know, rushing, screaming, yelling, and then that lesson sticks, but we're already on to the next thing. So I love that you talked about transformation. Um, one of the other things that has helped me tremendously is creating systems. So, for instance, like you mentioned the morning routine, getting out the door. It's always crunch time. And so for me, it's like, okay, what's an ample amount of time that we need to do our morning routine, clean our rooms, get dressed, have breakfast? And so it's not like I'm waking them up late and we're rushing and like hurry up and eat, we gotta go. But it's like, I know I have to wake them up by 7:30. So they have at least a half hour to take it slow, get dressed, all these things, and then have breakfast. And I kind of have an internal clock of like, we should be done by this time, we should be done by that time. And we recently, my husband and I went on a trip. We had grandma come stay with them. So I printed out that timeline. Like, we should be up by 7:30, eating breakfast by 7:50, starting our morning routines by 8.10. And so it was like everybody kind of knows what time we if so then you can see, oh, I'm a little behind. I better pick it up. That has tremendously taken off the pressure. And also telling my kids, mom, we'll hold on to this for you. I'll be in charge of what time we need to leave, but you have to listen to me. Otherwise, because it used to be a fight, and they'd be like, I don't, why do we have to? And I was like, if you want to take that on, you want to be responsible for what time to get up, what time to leave, you do it. It's your call. And I would just sit and play with the baby and they'd be like, is it time to go? And it'd be like, I don't know, is it? And they'd be like, they would get so stressed out, and they said, Okay, I want you to take this on, mom. And I said, Okay, then you have to listen to me when it's time to go. And so creating that system and having them realize, like, if I have the choice, it's really stressful. If mom tells me, then I don't have to think about it. Oh my gosh, game changer, are there any other systems that you could think of that we can put in place to kind of take the circumstance out of the power struggle?

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, I mean, first of all, I love what you've created. And um I would agree with you that that takes a lot of the stress every day away if everybody knows the expectations. And that's essentially what you've got is you've got a pretty good idea every day. This is what I need to be doing. By this time I need to be done, blah, blah, blah. Um, the only thing I would add to that is that not every child um processes everything verbally. And so what I found with some kids that works better than verbal is um if you can show them a picture of it. Okay. So you make a deck of cards and you catch them doing it right. I mean, the principles for all of this is you catch everybody doing it right, you highlight, verify, acknowledge, as opposed to working around the model of catch them doing it wrong, criticize, bring it up a lot. So instead of catching them doing it wrong, we catch them doing it right. We highlight, verify, acknowledge. We never praise because that's the number one way to reach, you know, low self-esteem. So we just abandoned praise a long time ago and moved to the acknowledgement model. We highlight, verify, acknowledge. Did you know you could do that? Wow, that's so great. I see how much effort you put in, you know, thank you so much. So, all of that material. And then in case they actually process life more visually, we give them the visual cues. So there's a picture of them getting out of bed, there's a picture of them making their bed, there's a picture of them putting their clothes away, there's a picture of them brushing their teeth, packing their lunch, all whatever it is in your family. And they get their own deck of cards with them doing all the all the stuff. Oh, I love that. And then they can use their own deck of cards to basically be like, okay, check, done that, check, done that, check, done that.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Without having to um have verbal cues all the time.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yeah, that makes it even easier. That's really great. And I think one of the things you were talking about with acknowledgement, um, it's so good because it doesn't put it on you, who you are, your identity, but it puts it on your behavior. So for my boys, I'll tell them, whoa, you're on fire this morning. And they'll be like, What about me? Am I on fire? And I'm like, Yeah, you're ahead of schedule. Oh, wow, you've earned like 10 minutes of free time. What do you want to do? And so then they're like, Oh, I can work toward that. I can read my book or look at comics or whatever. Um, but just being like, or if they're behind, I'll just be like, okay, you're running a little behind. Can you turn on the jets? And then they're like, oh, I gotta turn on the jets. And so just the language we use versus analogies.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Yeah, that's a fantastic. It makes it fun. It makes it it stays in the fun zone. It keeps us out of the power struggle because you're using the language of acknowledgement as opposed to praise and working in that field, then yeah, I mean, it's this, it's the it's the difference between them recognizing and acknowledging that they have a skill within themselves, which is the foundation of self-esteem, further than rather than what does somebody else think about me. Right. So socially prescribed perfectionism is when you've trained your children to look around and see what other people say and what other people do and how they measure up. And so self-referenced is where I didn't do that well on my spelling test. I did better this week. I feel really good about that. And it has nothing to do with your grade. Yeah. Or anybody else's. Because you're not looking around the room to see how you performed or outperformed or underperformed compared to somebody else. You're back in the land of, yeah, I didn't do very well. I worked really hard. I did better this week. I feel good about that.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah. And you know what's crazy is with my boys, I've noticed them, we'll go on hikes, and that's kind of our way to like talk and just be together. And the way they talk about themselves, I'm like, whoa, I would never have talked about myself internally that way. Like they'll process and be like, yeah, I noticed I'm not that good at pitching, but I'm really good at hitting. And it's just like there's no emotion attached to it. It's just um like this is the reality. Yes. And I'm like, that's amazing. That is really beautiful. It's really cool. And I love where we are in our culture of parenting today, where it does allow for more of that. And it's like the truth and the love, you know, versus maybe blowing things out of proportion or allowing kids to internalize things. It's like we can create boundaries, we can create discipline with truth and love. And so I think there's a lot of positive things happening in parenting right now. Um, the other thing I wanted to talk to you about is emotions. So, one of the things, and I am hot blooded, I will, it's like that's my Default setting. And I know one, another mom who grew up in a house full of yelling and screaming. And so she would get really triggered and she would put in earphones or like um earplugs. So it would help to regulate herself. But one of the things that really helped me was the book Positive Discipline by Jane Nelson. I don't know if you've read that book, but a lot of it is just you set the expectation, you come up with a consequence if they miss the expectation and you enforce the consequence. So it's like, I need you to put your socks in the hamper. They don't put their socks in the hamper. You say, Oh, you didn't put your socks in the hamper, so this is what's going to happen. You don't have to yell and scream and cry and cajole. It's just like this was the expectation. We missed the expectation. And so that has helped me a ton to be like, say, you know, we've told one of our kids to not hit his brother. He hits his brother, and I say, okay, I don't like that that was the choice you made. So we've talked about this. And if you hit your brother, you don't get to play video games this weekend. And then he cries and he cajoles and he's like, you know, having all these emotions. And I'm like, this is the expectation we set. And so this is the boundary. I'm sorry you crossed that boundary. And then you just stand firm. And it's like, I don't have to scream. I don't have to yell. I don't have to say, we told you eight times not to do that. It's like we already have a clear expectation. Is that kind of similar in keeping with what you teach, or is that a departure? It's actually a departure.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Oh, okay. Yeah. So the thing that I really, really want to focus on is that every behavior is an attempt to meet a need. So if we use this paradigm, and it's a choice, you don't have to, you can use another paradigm, but it's the one I chose. So if you use the paradigm of needs are either being met or unmet, and when I can't meet my need, I fall apart. And when I fall apart, I usually do it in ways that are tragic, not necessarily just for me, but maybe for other people. So if I see the tragic expression of an unmet need, I have a choice to make that the primary issue or to keep it right where it belongs as the secondary issue. And get to the underlying unmet need that gave rise to the feeling and the action and behavior. So let's use your example. You're you have one child who hits another child. I look at that as a cue and a clue, a signaling behavior. Of course, we don't want him to hit his brother. It's not acceptable. It's clearly not okay. So we communicate, you know, look, obviously there's something going on for you. Your feelings are overwhelming, and your unmet needs have driven this behavior, which is not okay. I have to keep the rules. Everybody stays safe in this family. And what I'd like to support you with is when this something feeling arises that leads to that action. How can I support you in figuring out another way to work with that underlying unmet need that all feelings are connected to unmet needs, right? So a feeling is like the light on the dashboard flashing. And when you see the light on the dashboard, the problem isn't that the light is flashing. So you don't try to figure out how to disable the light. It's that, oh my God, I'm about to run out of oil, or my engine is overheating, or I'm out of gasoline, or or or or or so our interest is not to disable the light, even though the light in this case is a hit. I don't want that to arise, but I also don't want to move into the land of rewarding or punishing the behaviors I want or don't want. Right. Because it completely disconnects me to what arose internally that gave rise to that action or behavior. I've never in 25 years of coaching seen an action or behavior that isn't tied to something. Yes. So what's giving rise to it is what I'm interested in, as opposed to how do I punish him to make him never do that behavior again, without supporting him to figure out how to regulate his emotions.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

Yeah, and that's good. And we talk about that too with we'll say, we always love you. There's nothing you could do to make us not love you. It's when you allow those emotions to lead you to a bad choice. That's when we have a consequence. So for in our family, that's how we do it. So it's when they would say, You don't love me, or and we'd say, nope, we always love you. There's nothing you can do, but you get to choose what you do, your choices. And we'll talk to them about what happened and all that. But we do enforce consequences in this particular um situation I was telling you about, it was it was not hitting necessarily, it was spanking. So he will spank his brother on the bottom and we'll tell him, don't touch people's bottoms. Your brother has told you not to touch his bottom, and he'll do it repeatedly. So that's when we're like, okay, we've created this framework of like, and it's usually being silly where he's just playing and we're like, well, he doesn't like when you touch him there. So you need to not touch him there. And so now it's like breaking uh a knee-jerk reaction, a habit. And so we're like, this is how he will connect, not touching, because he loves his video game time and it's only on the weekends. So I'm like, and then it sticks, it's at least it seemed to have sticked more because it's not necessarily a negative behavior as much as a habit. But I see what you're saying, and I a hundred percent agree with that. Of like, let's change the oil, let's not try to dismantle the light.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

It's yeah, I mean, from my paradigm, we want to create an internal locus of causality. So an internal locus of causality comes about through connecting my inner world and what I arising and how I connect with it and what happens when something inside of me happens.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

So when we don't do the work inside, then we may get a change in behavior, maybe. I'm not sure. We'll see what happens with your story. But what I see is a lack of skill. And so regulating themselves. The work is around skill building. The work is around skill building. There's also work around, you know, if you can't play nicely, you can't play. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm gonna have to take you out of this playground, playroom, whatever, and come sit with me. Let's, you know, get you calmed down again. And then let's work through this. And it's all done without the use of power rewards or punishments. When you train a child to think they change their behavior because of what somebody does to them, then you take their power away and their agency. So people need to learn to change their behavior because they choose it.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

Because they've chosen regulation, that they recognize that they could choose this other thing still, but that it's out of alignment with their own values. They have learned, and this is the core, is that to teach consideration of other people's experiences of my behavior. And I want them to learn to be considerate, not only of what their behavior is doing to other people, but also considerate of what other people's behavior is doing to themselves. So it's a huge theory of change. I mean, my theory is different than yours. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Um, but I have a different perspective on the theory of change and how to create behavioral change.

SPEAKER_02 30:01

I think the underlying connection between the two, though, is I believe that our voices as parents translate into how they speak to themselves and how they regulate later in life. So it's like if they had overbearing power struggle, you didn't do this, that, it becomes that voice in their head of like, I'm bad. I did this wrong.

SPEAKER_00 30:25

No, I'm not reporting ever, but parents resolve to the use. That's a type of abuse.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

Yes. And so I think that's the that's the underlying and teaching that skill because even my my approach seems obviously different, but I'm like, I can see him working through that in his mind now. I love video games. I don't want to lose that, so I'm not gonna make this choice. And so it's lessened a ton, but it's like you still can't make that choice. It's just this is the this is the result of that choice. And so um, I have seen it, and one of the things in that book that I love so much is she talks a lot about natural consequences.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

The example like are not power and control. Yes, natural consequences are not taking video games away. Yes, of course. And I was gonna say I was gonna say that's not connected in the land of natural consequences, and you and I all agree all day long. It's when we lapse into the idea of using an external locus of causality to generate an internal locus of control. So he might decide at some stage to change his behavior because he wants to play video games and he doesn't want to lose that privilege. I'd rather he change his behavior because he realizes this person doesn't like it. Yeah, me too. I would love that. I value what this person has requested. Yeah. And that's generally my self-control, but there's a lapse of self-control, and I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna guess that it has something to do with the dynamic in the family around the relationship his little brother has, and something about that relationship that he doesn't have.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Okay. I I see what you're saying, and maybe it does require some more digging. For me, it's like this particular child has a lot of um body autonomy issues where he is touching and playing, and it's constantly bringing it back to being aware of where you're where your limbs are, what you know, and so it's like we have tried those things, and he does understand and wants to respect, and then he just can't. And so that has worked tremendously. Um, but I see what you're saying, and I yeah, maybe there will be some more digging. I want to keep going though, because one of the things I've noticed is as kids grow, needs change. And right now there's a gap in my boys where before it didn't seem so different, but now my oldest is 10. And so now we're noticing a lot more he's irritable, or you know, little things will set him off with his brother, and they share a room. And so, as much as possible, like this morning, they were bickering, and I said, Okay, I'm gonna take the younger one out, you're gonna have breakfast while the older one does his chores and gets dressed, then we're gonna switch. And it was so peaceful. It was like we give him his space, he gets dressed in a room by himself, and then we switch. And I have never tried that before, but again, it was altering the circumstance versus worrying about why, you know, that type of thing. And so I'm wondering if there's anything, or is that like we need to get to the bottom of every single behavior? Or is it okay? Like, I'm just gonna lighten the load here. I'm just gonna say you get your space for a minute. Is that okay, or is that being permissive?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Oh God, I don't think that's permissive at all. At all. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Um, permissive is allowing, you know, disruptive behaviors, harmful behaviors to continue and not address them. Yeah. Right? That that's and then a permissive parent, some people get stuck because the only tool in their tool shed is power and control, rewards and punishments. That's it. That's their only tool. And so they always result to power over. They may begin to notice that their kids don't have as much warmth toward them. So then they'll go to permissiveness and they just become the doormat parent.

unknown 34:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

And then they begin to feel resentful. So we can see how resentment flows can shift around. But if we use a guidance approach, which is what I teach, the guidance approach is not about ever allowing inconsiderate behaviors to continue. It's about addressing the inconsiderate behaviors. Do we need to get to the bottom of what's underneath it? It helps because otherwise you are not really ever, you're just going to keep addressing it over and over and over again, right? It's never going to stop. The problem perpetuates. There is a, you know, in solution focused therapy, the approach is definitely to try just changing things. Change your routine, do things differently. I mean, you can look at it as sometimes we just need to do what you did, which is how about if we just do this? Yeah. How about if we just take turns, you know, who gets to be in the room at what time? Um, but it does give me a little more insight into the amount of time that they're spending together, and that, you know, sometimes what happens is that your older one, maybe he's at a point where he needs more just time to himself. Yes. And less together time.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

And so when he tries to stay connected to his inner yearning for private time, it may evoke a feeling in some other people. Maybe his little brother doesn't have that same feeling. Maybe that person is still looking for more connected together time, playtime, and is feeling maybe hurt that there's a pulling back from the older brother who doesn't seem to want to spend as much time with him. Maybe, I don't know. And maybe that comes out in ways that you've not detected, and maybe you keep an eye out for that. But it could be a conversation around, you know, everybody needs not just together time, but also alone time.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:30

And needing alone time is not um anything about you being not fun or somebody I don't love or care about. It might be that it's being misinterpreted. That's a really interesting thing. It may not even be the situation, but it could be.

SPEAKER_02 36:47

It's interesting just to think about because we've noticed that as our son, you know, is now 10 and he's almost in preteen years, we've noticed he needs more space. And so we've given him the office. If you ever need to go downstairs and just have some quiet time, you can use the office, lay on the couch, read, you can go outside, you can take a walk. We he has enough autonomy to go on a bike ride or a walk by himself. And he has utilized that, but I have never thought about the experience of the younger child of like, oh my gosh, I wonder how this is affecting him. And we do have another child, and so they'll often play together too. So it's like, but maybe, and he is the very touchy, feely, clingy, you know, he's the one who's always spanking bottom. So I'm like, maybe at that point it would be like, hey, do you want to cuddle and read a book or do something while he's having that quiet time? I never even considered that. So that's beautiful. Um, the other thing, and maybe this is continuing on in that theme of situation, but I think what I've learned, and I'm still, I would say, new at this. I mean, I've been doing it a decade, parenting. Um, the other thing is that we don't always see the full picture. There was a time when our middle child was constantly having behavior issues, and there was all of these things going on. There was nightmares, waking up at night, overheating at night, all of these things. And we were like, what's going on? So I would try to get him cool packs for his bed, for his pillow, cooler sheets, a cooling pad, all these things. We would talk about fear. We would pray over his dreams, and we would work on, you know, consequences if he had bad behaviors. And it was like nothing seemed to work. And then his doctor was like, you know what? Um, based on some other things, I think he might have a hypoglycemic sensitivity. So let's just change his diet a little bit. Boom, within two days, behaviors were better. No more nightmares, no more overheating. It was like a myriad of unconnected things all went away that we had been trying to address separately. And so I'm like, man, I think a lot of it we have an internal compass as moms, where we can alarm bells will go off and we can maybe dig into it further. But I feel like the behavior is just the tip of the iceberg. And we don't know is it diet, is it medical, is it, you know, overtired, is it emotions? So are there any ways to parse out what's really going on? Do you have any strategies for that?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Yeah, I do. I mean, again, this is why the use of consequences can be so damaging.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:22

Because you had these behaviors that you thought you could, I guess, change by the use of consequences.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

When actually he needed his diet changed. Yeah. And then he got punished essentially for an irregulated, you know, nervous system and, you know, some other things that were happening internally that really were out of his hands.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

And it's sort of again, we're back to curiosity when the behaviors are sort of inconsiderate around like, gosh, this child, I wonder what's going on for him. Because I don't believe people are just inconsiderate without it tied to something.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

But then that's a, you know, again, a belief that I have that human beings are primarily loving and kind. And if you see behaviors that are different than that, then that's a that's a something to be interested in, curious about. Like what's giving rise to this tragic expression of the unmet needs? What's giving rise to the tragic expression? And it's that what that we get to keep focusing on, the primary issues.

unknown 40:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

When we get lapsed into the secondary issues, we just start to develop retaliation, rebellion, and resistance. And we layer on top of whatever the reason was for this lapse in behavior, on top of it now, because of how we handled that, we can start to activate a resentment flow where it becomes even more exacerbated.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

And then if you continue down the road of, okay, well, that what's the consequence for that behavior? Then before you know it, you're way over in the land of anger and defiance. And you have a dance that you've put into place because the way we saw the initial thoughtless behavior and how we felt we needed to change it led us to this other place. So when I listen to this, I think to myself, okay, we have a model, and this is the model. This is actually a researched model where you have a behavior and you think to yourself, okay, this is a thoughtless behavior. I I I'm not okay with it. But what's the origin of the behavior? 75% of behavioral disruptions are the three Rs. 75%, three out of four problems and behaviors are a reaction to power being used over them. So every time I have a client, I always lean in to try to feel into is this retaliation, rebellion, resistance? If it is, how the parent is dealing with things is giving rise to this harvest that they're collecting. So super easy, super easy solve. The parent addresses problems with more effective conflict resolution strategies. The three R's disappear, and we really get down to just dealing with the primary issues without all of this other stuff. So that's the first circle, because that's most of the time what it is. So if we peel that back and that's not what it is, then the second circle inside of that is what we look to. Is there something in the environment? Is there a coach who's singling out a child and being mean to them or putting them on the spot and making them embarrassed? Is there a parent in their world that's doing this? Is there a teacher? Is there a kid? Is there a bully? Is there something in the environment that they're in turmoil about because they don't know how to deal with it? So that's giving rise to the behavior. And that's the problem that needs to be addressed. So then we look for that. So if it's not that, then we go to the next layer. Is it just a lack of skill? Is this just a child has something arising that they don't have the skills to manage? We teach skills. And if it's not that, then we go to the next layer, which is is it something else? Is it red dye number five? Yes. Is it an allergy? Is it something that's irritating the nervous system? Because the the irritation in the nervous system, the brain doesn't have a receptor like you would have if you got a bruise where it aches. So you only see it through behavior. Right. Through the Dysregulated nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Yes. And I love, I love that you uh mentioned curiosity because that is such an easy go-to of like, let's create the muscle of instantly, let's be curious and ask why. And with this particular thing, it was like it had been going on for months. And I kept asking myself why. And we would change this, we would change that. And it was, and I, you know, we did do consequences, but it was like I didn't stop there. I didn't stop saying why. And I asked his doctor, and then it was like maybe six months in, oh, we got it. And then it was like, and we had to talk about that with him of like, apparently it was this thing going on, and now this is gonna be help. And I have noticed too, just overall, we don't have power struggles in our house, in our family. I don't know that I'm totally willing to let go of consequences just yet, because I do feel like this detective work takes sometimes a long time. And for me, it's helpful to be able to nip bad behaviors in the bud while we're searching into it, but continuing the conversation and communication and keeping the lines open with them. But it's like, so this thing took six months of curiosity of like, what is this? What is this? And I can't allow bad behaviors to go on while we're figuring it out. But you have given me a ton to think about. So I am, I'm gonna work on that curiosity muscle. I'm gonna keep pressing in in those areas. I hope all the moms listening will do the same. Is there any last word of advice that you'd like to share with us before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Um, yeah, I mean, I guess the um the the rules of the road um in the family system are always going to be most effective when they're generated collectively. So when we create the rules of the road, we sit down as a family and we talk about in this house, and we actually I recommend people take a piece of paper, everybody gets a paper, they get a crayon, they draw their house. And then they put inside of the house the things that get to happen in their house. We get to make mistakes if that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

Because in some cases it's not acceptable to make mistakes and people get consequences.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah, no, we make mistakes here.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

So, how do we encourage that it's okay to make mistakes? We get to talk about things, we get to be quiet, we get to have a perspective. I mean, whatever it is, because every family's going to be different. You and I both know that. On this scale of power over, a lot of parents have language around what respect and disrespect looks like. We could spend an hour on that.

SPEAKER_01 46:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Yeah. And it's so much tied to family of origin. What's okay, what's not okay, and family of origin. Yeah. And how much of that can we transcend? Or how much do we make them wrong?

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yes. I love giving them a say. And I love just what you're saying here, reminds me how much we need to work on healing ourselves and reparenting ourselves because we are bringing so much baggage into our parenting from whatever we experienced. And so I think that's lovely. I love that you challenged me on some things. You've given me a lot to think about. Um, so this is it has flown by.

SPEAKER_03 47:34

I've loved it.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

So, Catherine, we do a little fun thing at the end, but before we get to that, do you will you tell everybody where to find you if they want to learn more or hire you for coaching? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

So um, conscious parentingrevolution.com is the website. You can go there and join my free lifeline community, family lifeline community, which is basically just parents sharing. And, you know, if you're having a bad day and you need a lifeline, you know, we're there to support you. And so is the community. Um, you can go to freeparentingbook.com and get my seven strategies to keep your relationship with your kids from hitting the boiling point, my Amazon bestseller free of charge. Um, and uh I think both of those is probably the best way to stay connected. And, you know, through that, if you ever need to reach me, there are lots of ways to do it on the website. Um, and that's super simple.

SPEAKER_02 48:35

Oh, great. Okay. I will put all of that in the show notes so people can have an easy access to those things. Now, okay, Catherine, I don't know where you are in your spiritual journey. And if you're totally closed off to this, please, I will not take offense. But every week I pray for my guests before they come on and I just sit with them in my mind and I see if anything comes to me as far as their life, their pursuits, anything like that. And I do felt like I heard something for you. Would it be okay to share it? Oh, I love that. Yes. Oh, great. Okay. So as I was praying for you, what I heard was your voice is needed, and I saw you speaking on more and more stages. And I heard buckle up, things are about to get busy. And then I but I felt like this was a joy and not a stress. Like things were about to get really fast-paced, but it was exciting. So that's all I saw and heard. I hope that it comes to fruition.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

And it resonates. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Thank you for hearing.

SPEAKER_03 49:35

How sweet. What a beautiful gift.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Thank you, Catherine, and thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. It was really a joy, and I appreciated that we could have a really honest conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Me too. I love it. I love, yeah, I love that it's not just glossy. We get to get into the trenches with her and so wonderful. Thank you. Oh, thanks, Catherine. Okay, bye. This has been the Dead Mother Podcast. Remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. If you enjoyed today's episode, please leave a review. It really does help. Special thanks to Jose Cerna for our theme music and Katie Legou for our cover art.