5.35 Identity with Ryann Watkin

Ryann Watkin is a speaker, educator, podcaster and mom. She helps educators, parents and aspiring leaders feel happier at work and home through workshops, keynote talks and podcast interviews focusing on joy, resilience, and purpose. She’s here today to have an honest, soulful conversation with us about the identity shifts we experience throughout motherhood.

You can find Ryann on Instagram and LinkedIn...

And download the Raising Wild Hearts podcast or watch it on YouTube!   

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

I'm Kitty Aki. I'm a mom of three, and I'm a good mom, but I'm always learning and growing, and I bet you are too. So join me on my mission to learn from moms from all walks of life because let's be honest, momming is way more fun when we do it together. Welcome to the Den Mother Podcast. Hi everyone, welcome to another episode of the Den Mother Podcast, and not just any episode, you guys. This is the season five finale. I cannot believe I've been doing this for five years. And I just want to say a huge thank you to all of you who have followed with me through the ups and downs, the changes, the hosts, the no hosts, the format changes. It's been a wild ride, but thank you so much for coming on board. Um, this last episode is going to be a really special one because we're talking about identity, and it's such an important piece of motherhood that I think often goes overlooked. So let me read today's guest bio and then we'll jump right into the conversation. Ryan Watkin is a speaker, educator, podcaster, and mom. She helps educators, parents, and aspiring leaders feel happier at work and at home through workshops, keynote talks, and podcast interviews focusing on joy, resilience, and purpose. She's here today to have an honest, soulful conversation with us about the identity shifts we experience throughout motherhood. Hi, Ryan. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Hi, I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I know this is no small feat and it takes a lot of time and energy. So thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Oh, my pleasure, you guys. If anybody knows what this is like, it's Ryan. She is the host of the podcast Raising Wild Hearts, and she does this too. So, ooh, you get it. I was like, already this morning we had a puppy escape, and she's been so patient. I'm like, you've been there, you get it, all the ups and downs.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I get it. And congratulations on making it to season five and the end of season five. Like, I this is so cool to be here in the finale.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Yes, I know. You're very special. Thank you. So let's start now talking about your motherhood journey. What was it like for you? Now you have three kids now, but what was it like for you when you first became a mom?

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Yeah, I love it. So I've been a babysitter since I was like 10. I loved kids always. I was 10 when my brother was born. And so my husband was like, You seem like you've got this. Like you're pretty confident going into this motherhood thing. And I'm like, Yeah, I totally got this. I got this. It's famous last words. It's famous last words. I didn't, I didn't have this. No, I think, you know, God, I call it God or the universe, whatever it is for you, you know, it gives us what we need, right? And so it gave me kind of a wake-up call. And it was really hard. I do remember being pregnant though, and just fundamentally, I felt like a different person. I drove differently. I spoke differently. I, you know, I just I ate different, all the things. I just was, I it was like a switch went off and I just changed. Um, so you know, there were some biological changes happening, of course, up until that moment. And then wasn't really prepared to not sleep. I was like, oh my God, I'm never gonna sleep again. And so I was very tired and very stretched thin. And um, I wanted to, I wanted to do it right so bad. And I wanted to do it perfect so bad. And every time my beautiful oldest child, when she was a baby, would cry or anything, I would just be like, I got you. And and all of my needs went to the side. And she was about five months old, and I had an acute postpartum uh anxiety attack, which was really psychosis. Like I really just went off the deep end and I really had a hard time and was like, nothing feels safe, nothing is okay. I'm gonna die. Like I just, I was like imminent death. I I'm I'm so exhausted. And so it was, I was really put through the ringer. Um, but it was cool because there it was like my rock bottom, and there was nowhere to go but up. And so I really, you know, walked through that season slowly and um very much with challenge, but um, it was a huge catalyst of growth.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

So oh man. Okay, Ryan, I see myself in you so much because I was the same way with my first pregnancy, it was like, I gotta get this right. Like we grew up in a family of five kids. I babysat since I was nine. I was like, I should know how to do this and I gotta do it perfectly. And you know, some of that's the type a perfectionist already coming out. Um, but man, you guys, if you are pregnant now or if you are in the postpartum phase, that is a huge red flag because motherhood, by its very nature, is fluid. And if you're trying to hold on to this fluid thing, it will drip between your fingers. So you've got to, you've got to be fluid too. So that is such a beautiful thing. I want to start with your pregnancy because I love that you mentioned the identity shift in pregnancy, which we often overlook, but something fundamentally changes. And I remember the same thing, even just the pace. Like I had to go, I would, I was a doer 100%, go, go, go, go, go. And I had to go down to like 20%. And that was so frustrating for me. Were there any other things that you saw other than the physical biological changes that you started to notice? Oh, I'm changing. Anything tangible you can remember?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

You totally. And I don't know why I remember this example. Probably because I live in South Florida and we have interstate 95 here. If anyone's ever driven a 95 or like a really busy place, you'll know what I'm talking about. And I've like been kind of a speedy driver. You know, I grew up in Florida. Like, I'm like, you gotta kind of like speed and be a little aggressive and whatever. And I remember driving, like, not cautiously, not like, oh my God, I wasn't nervous or scared, but just like so much more responsibly. I was like, I could cruise in the right lane and be happy all day. Like I remember that so palpably, which is very strange. Um, and then a month before I got pregnant, a month before I found out I was pregnant, I had quit my full-time corporate job to be a business owner. And so there was this shift from corporate, full-time steady paycheck to entrepreneur and then like pregnant, gonna be a mom soon. And so I do remember so distinctly feeling like I'm so different already. And there would be many more changes to come. Um, but it's really cool, like what our bodies do, the hormone shifts, and like it's actually preparing us. I think our brain grows, and I don't, I'm not like a stats gal, but I think our brain grows like a pretty big amount during pregnancy. And it's just all the things that happen are so cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

It's so it's so intentional to me. And I also believe in God. And I'm like, how can you go through this process and not see God? It is so there's so much detail, and even the way that our, you like you said, our brains, our minds, our bodies, everything prepares even before we are or know we are pregnant. Like, I don't know if you've ever read Will Smith's book, but he said, Jada Pinkett Smith, while she was on top of him after having sex, was like, I'm pregnant. And he was like, You can't find out that soon. And she was like, something changed. I know my body. And then sure enough, six weeks later, they confirmed it with a test or whatever. But it was like, I'm not that in tune with my body, but I do feel like pregnancy really dialed me in, where it was like I had to slow down and listen. And I felt like the pace even was intentional. Like you need to slow down and listen. What is your body asking for? Because it's not just for you, like the driving thing. It was like suddenly your body and mind are aware, I'm not just carrying me in this car. And so you're like, let's slow down, let's be responsible. Um, so now let's jump back to your dark night of the soul, I believe you've called it, which is that um postpartum psychosis. And I also experienced postpartum psychosis, though it was different. Mine was hallucinations and like I would see the baby when she wasn't there, I would swaddle her to go out and find she was sitting with my husband, or I would wake up in a panic that I crushed her in my arms and she's in the crib and things like that, where I was seeing her all the time and she wasn't with me. Um, how long did yours last approximately? Or was it just like one brief moment blip of intense anxiety and panic?

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Thank you so much for sharing that, first of all, because since I started sharing this story, so many women have said to me that similar or different has happened to me too. So, like to talk about it. Hallelujah. Yes, yes, yes. Um, and okay, so what it was, it was a moment which like doctors would call like a panic attack, right? And then for two days after that, I could not eat and I could not sleep. And my body was completely, my nervous system was completely hijacked. And I had two very dear friends who were married and also happened to be therapists at the time. And they like nursed me back to health. I mean, they fed me bone broth and they held the baby while I slept. And so I finally got to like, so you know, it was like 48 hours. And so after I like slept and rested and ate, I was like, okay, like, wow, that was crazy. That was, you know, not to say crazy because I think that word has a negative connotation, but that was like wild. Oh my God, that just happened. And it yeah, and so, and everything still wasn't rosy on the other side of that. I was still very like, how do I do this? You know, but I remember my husband then started getting up with our daughter and you know, shushing her and doing like the shush shush because I was nursing. And I thought I had to nurse all night long. And if I didn't, I wasn't a good mom. And so we started, you know, like helping, we started splitting the duties of like who got up at night because I was like, I got this, like hyper independent. I don't need anybody, I don't need to ask for help. Friends and family are asking, are you okay? And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, everything's fine. Everything's totally fine. Wasn't fine.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Oh man. I did the same thing, by the way, Ryan. It was like my husband only got two weeks off for paternity leave. And so when he went back to work, I was like, Well, you better get some sleep because you have to work in the morning. So I'll stay up all night and then work all day. That makes sense. And he was so sleep deprived too that he was like, Yeah, cool, let's do that. And so he, and looking back, he has formally and informally apologized. And like, I knew that was the wrong thing to do. I was so tired, though, who's gonna turn down sleep? Um, but yeah, it is that like vulnerability of reaching out to your village, and I'm so glad you had these like perfect people who were there who were trained to know what to do and how to help you. Um, but that vulnerability of like, no, I don't have this, and it's okay if I don't have this, because that's where the growth happens. We don't learn anything when we close off to, I got it all, don't leave me alone. I'm fine, I'm fine. Nothing happens there. Um, so with me, uh, if anybody who's listened to the show knows I had postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, um, PTSD, and postpartum psychosis. And my PTSD was wild, Ryan. It was like if I even saw a stroller, I would get morning sickness and feel like I was gonna vomit, a baby bottle. Anything that would trigger it, I would feel intense panic and I would literally feel the symptoms of morning sickness again. And so it was wild. But how did you come out of that? I know you had the few days of rest and that did a lot, but I'm sure that there was lingering mental, emotional, physical things. How did you work to heal from that?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

Yeah, love that question because I think back on that time in my life, and it was like being in a trench, being like, when am I gonna get out of this? So, really, where it started was just like yoga, breath work, books, but it, but nothing was like a magic bullet. You know what I'm saying? It all like kind of really slowly, like one small baby step at a time, like forward, and then talk therapy. I did go on, I'm like a holistic gal. I did go on an antidepressant for I think it was like two months, and it was my practitioner was like, you know, I think with the severity of your psychosis, it would be a good call. And I was like, okay, I'll give it a shot. So I did that for two months, and I was like, I gotta ditch that because it just doesn't align. And it also didn't feel good. Um, so yeah, just like these baby steps, and I take like two steps forward and seven steps back and five steps forward. Ultimately, I um started journaling. I mean, started writing, uh, all the things, like all the things. Um, I stopped drinking alcohol, which was a big one because what really sparked that dark night of the soul, what really sparked that psychosis was I had been numbing and brushing trauma and abuse and uh emotional dynamics under the rug for 15 years. And so, you know, like speaking of identity shifts, like the former version of me, like early 20s, me was she was like, she was so fun. Like she was like dancing on the city. We all work. Come on, yeah, like no cares in the world. And she was so fun and carefree. And so I just I was brushing everything under the rug. And so it was like a beach ball that you're trying to hold under the water. Eventually, the pressure, you know, is just too much and it explodes like a volcano. And so the key for me, the key for me really was like, okay, I need to feel this. I'm one step forward. I need to feel this. I remember so distinctly working with this um, gosh, I don't know if she was like a remote practitioner. She's this wonderful spiritual, soulful healer. And she said to me, Can you feel your feet? And I was like, What the hell are you talking about? Yeah, what is what do my feet have to do with anything? My feet, of course I can feel my feet. They're attached to my body. And she's like, and she's like, just like close your eyes and like tune in. Like, can you like really can you feel your feet? And ultimately what she was trying to get me to to sense was this groundedness. And I had not been grounded probably my entire life. Like since birth, I was like, this is wild. This is crazy. Like, I'm doing this again. Like I was born into trauma, born into abuse, born into these wild dynamics. And as a baby, I was like, no, really, like again, you know. So, so she wanted me to feel this groundedness. And so if I had to boil it down to one thing, really, it would be that sense of safety, that sense of my nervous system, like exhale, feet on the ground. I'm here, like here, here's where I am, you know, just like checking myself in reality, and I can do this. And if I'm feeling anger, I'm gonna feel it and I'm gonna punch the pillows. If I'm feeling despair, because there were so many days I remember on the ground, face just in my hands, like a puddle on the ground, because it was making up for lost time of all these things I didn't allow myself to feel. And so I just like want to give that version of me like a big hug. And I think I was really um guided and held and protected by, you know, all my ancestors and angels and God, you know. And so yeah, it was messy and it was, it was hard, but it was just one step. Just like, we'll keep going. One step, one step.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Oh, you guys, there's so much wisdom in everything you just said. I don't want to gloss over anything. The biggest takeaway I got was oftentimes we don't want to feel it. We want to hurry and get to the end. We're like, I don't want the pain. I need to push past it and get to the end quickly. But the beauty lies in the journey. The beauty lies in allowing yourself to feel every every emotion, even if it's uncomfortable, painful, whatever, and allowing it in. And some of those feelings are helping us, they're protecting us, and we can say thank you. Some of them, it's we feel them and then we release them and we say, uh, I no longer need you, sadness. You can leave. And I literally talk directly to the emotions, and I'll say, if it's if it's an unhealthy, it's coming out of nowhere, and I know it's more of an attack, I'll say, anger, get away from me. I do not need you right now. But if it's something that's trying to protect me, grief, whatever, being soft with yourself and going through it, the only way out is through. And I think so many times we try to rush it and we don't get a complete healing. But more importantly, we don't fully experience the change that comes from going through those deep things. So I love that you said that you had to sit and feel it. Oh, that's powerful. I've had to go through that myself, and it was amazing. I mean, it didn't feel good. But the other thing too is the going slow, the baby steps, because again, if you rush through it, you miss the entire point, you miss the whole process. And so I love that you're like, uh there's no silver bullet. It wasn't like I picked up this book, you guys, and it changed everything. It was like I had to breathe, then I had to go outside, then I had to do yoga, then I had to find myself, then I had to feel my feelings. It was like each day was a victory. So again, postpartum moms, if you're listening to this, I want you to think that way. Don't think I'm gonna get to the end and that's the victory. Think I breathed today today. I felt my emotions today. That's the victory. I took care of myself today. I loved myself today. So thank you so much for that. That was just wisdom a million times over. Um, the other thing that you kind of briefly touched on was trauma and abuse, which already is a lot for the body and mind to hold. But there's something about motherhood that brings out trauma. And I have talked on this podcast to psychologists and forensics people and all of these things, and they talk about the nature of motherhood is vulnerable. It's exposing. In some cases, it's psychosexual, where you know it's your, it's all of your parts, your boobs and your lady parts, and it's like exposing every vulnerability of you. And so it tends to bring out a lot of that trauma. So you said you did talk therapy. What else for you helped with when some of these things started to come to the surface?

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Love it. So I did EMDR, tapping, which still even some days I really like. Just um, it's called the emotional freedom technique. And it's just like some people call it tapping, some people call it EFT. Really liked that, just like as a you know, presence. Um, my medicine is kundalini yoga. And when I stumbled into my first um yoga class, it felt like being home. And so when you find a modality, a practitioner, a healer that brings you back to yourself, like highly recommend 10 out of 10. Um, so I was able to like really come back to this um sovereignty that was always there, but I didn't know was available. And I mean, talk about an identity shift, like like really knowing like who at a soul level I am, you know, like I am that I am that I like not Ryan Watkin, podcast host, not even mom, just like, what am I here to do? And so anything that really pointed the, you know, pointed the arrow back inside, that was the stuff that was so helpful for me. And talk therapy actually wasn't the most helpful thing for me. Talk therapy now is very effective for me because I've uh excavated like some issues. And so when I need a season of therapy, I'll like come in with like my bullet points. I'm like, so here's like the gist and here's what I'm really stuck on, you know. So you have to be to to have, in my experience, to have talk therapy be effective, you have to already go in with this like kind of like homework, these bullet points of like, yeah, these are what I need to work on. So, you know, and there's other things, you know, reading has always been my my love. Like books just always help and um community, gosh, you know, being with being with people and being with like-minded people, interestingly enough, a lot of people fell away in those years of my life. A lot of, you know, friendships dissolved, which was also really sad. And I knew that they weren't the right fit, and I knew that they didn't quite feel right. And so there was a brief like stint of loneliness where it was like me and me. It was like, here I am with me. And so, you know, going out, finding your people, like attracts like, like, kind of like once you build up that authenticity piece enough where you really like pretty much know like. These are some of my core values and core tenets. I think you're gonna attract those women into your life, which is such a gift.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

A hundred percent. Oh my gosh, Ryan. I am I'm loving everywhere you're taking us because I'm like, these are valuable bullet points that we don't talk about. First of all, with therapy, do the work. Like I'm also an actor and I don't expect my agents to do a hundred percent of the work for me and get 10%. I'm gonna be enterprising, I'm gonna be networking, I'm gonna be looking for jobs, I'm gonna be going on set. You know, it's not like, okay, I show up to the therapist, fix me. You know, it's like I need to do some digging and some uncomfortable things and come ready and prepared to dig in further and be guided. So that's a be I've never heard that said that way, and that's a beautiful way. Um, by the way, have you read Seed of the Soul?

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Is that Michael Singer?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

No. Gosh, he has a hard last name. Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

Uh Gary, no, no. You got it, you got it. Right? Zuckoff? Yeah, is it with a Zoom? I think so. I think so. I know, I yes, I know what you're talking about. I have, but I feel like it's been a minute.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Good memory. It is Gary Zukov. Is it really? Okay, great. Yes, but in that book, that one goes deep into like layers and layers, and who are you? And he talks a lot about the work is driving over a pebble that hits your windshield. How do you respond in that moment? Like, these are the things that we oh, this is frustrating, and like I hate that that happened, and let's move past it. When he's like, No, that is the thing. Sit in it. How does that make you feel? Bring that out. Like, that's the work going through those things, and what comes out of you is what's inside. And so it's just like, yeah, we can go deeper and deeper and deeper, and it's so interesting. Yeah, the other thing you said kind of a while back was you said when you experience that grounding moment, you said, I don't think I've ever been grounded in my entire life before that. And that just reminded me like motherhood does something where it's a shaking, but it's a good shaking. You like you said, God knows what you need. And so it's like you needed that grounding that maybe there's no other way you would have gotten it without fully being rattled to your core. And I was the same way. I was very um controlling, tight grip on everything, just all of those types of things. And it was like I needed to be shaken loose of that, and I needed this new shift. So you talk a lot on your Instagram and some of your work on your gratitude for the process and the pain. Can you tell me about that now?

SPEAKER_01 24:46

So I start every day with gratitude and not just listing, I'm grateful for this, I'm grateful for that. I close my eyes and I don't stop until I can feel the emotion, the embodied sense of, oh, I'm so grateful. And this is on the days, you know, well, it's it's first thing before I even step out of the room. But if I wake up grumpy, you know, no matter what, I'm like, I gotta, I need to feel this way. So right now it's my baseline for everything. And I, it's interesting. Like I said the other day, would I change anything about my childhood, about who my parents were, you know, they loved me, but they had their own stuff they were dealing with, you know, about all the stuff that happened to me, the the postpartum experience, the being rattled to my core. Like, would I change anything? And I wouldn't change a damn thing. And I wouldn't be here sitting with you having this conversation today. And so, like, I really don't take this work lightly. Like, I don't. This is like it's such an honor to speak about these things and to hold the torch, so to speak, because there were so many women, so many women that I looked to when I was going through my dark night of the soul, or even just having a bad day. And I could look to them and they had the torch, and I'm like, it's really hard to see them, but I think they're up there, and I'm just gonna keep going. And so um, it's great to look back and just go like, oh my god, I did that. And what an empowering thing to live through challenge, to walk through challenge and let it change you, let it alchemize you, and you come out different on the other side. The science of alchemy is turning lead into gold. And if you have not read The Alchemist, please go read The Alchemist today, um, because this is what it's all about.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Yeah, going through that fire, being forged in the fire. I remember having a friend when I was shortly before I was pregnant for the first time, and she was telling us, I'm so grateful for the pain. I've never experienced pain before. I've never gone through anything hard, and I'm so grateful that I'm going through this. And I was like, What the hell are you talking about? Like, who wants to go through pain? I was like, this is dumbfounding to me. And even during my own pain, it took two years to recover from my first because I had some physical and mental issues. I couldn't run, walk, have sex, wear pants. Like it was bad. And um, at the time, I'm not, I wasn't embracing it like, thank you, Jesus, look at this. I was like pissed and like I couldn't run. I I was a runner and all these things. And but looking back, same. It's like I wouldn't change anything. I needed that time. Like, what else was I doing with my life if not becoming a better version of myself? That was the best use of my time I could have ever had. So I'm like, yes, looking back, I also am grateful. But in the moment, it is hard to stop and say, thank you for this experience, whatever the experience is.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

Um, and I just want to say too, like for anyone who's going through pain now, whether it's like you stub your toe, like my daughter stubbed her toe on our really annoying like wood bed frame last night. She's like, it was my pinky. Like, so whether you like stubbed your toe or you're walking through like a very hard challenge, like it's evidence of humanity. And so I always like remembering that, whether I'm in just like a grumpy mood or just like I'm really struggling because my life is not sunshine and rainbows today. Like there's the challenges still happen. The pebble hitting the windshield, like there's daily work, I call it chopping wood and carrying water every day, every day. So if you can remember that feeling the full spectrum of emotion, including anger or frustration or any of those like lower vibration, we'd call them emotions, like it's evidence of humanity. And like, what a gift! Like we're human. Like, look at the world right now. And you know, we I think there's kind of this good and evil thing going on. And so evidence of humanity is like uh it's it's where it's at.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah, we're in the fight till it's over, guys. Don't stop fighting. That's how I believe. Um okay, so the other part of this identity thing is like once we get over this big mountain, we're like, okay, I'm good. Like I figured it out and I've changed. And so now I'm the new me. But we forget like these little changes that were constantly shifting. Have you noticed in your own motherhood journey a constant shift? Or, I mean, what's it been like for you?

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah. Okay, so I love this question because I'm obsessed with thinking about like my grandma era, which is very strange. Ooh, and I know. And I'm like, I've got gray hair coming in, I have a little gray stripe here. And I'm like, I'm still far off from my grandma era. Like my kids are 11 and under. Like, so I'm still a ways away. But I think about my grandma era because I actually had a very brilliant therapist somewhat recently who we talked about beginning with the end in mind. And so if I think about the end in mind, I am 100 years old on my deathbed with my kids and my, I got a goosebumps, with my kids and my grandkids and like the people, the relationships, hopefully my husband, the relationships that meant so much to me because, like, honestly, like from where I'm standing, like nothing else matters. And we hem and haw over all this stuff that we do. And so I always begin with the end in mind. So right now, identity for me, like I've gotten much more flowy in my feminine, able to ride the waves of these changes because there are changes happening every day, you know, with my kids and with me. And so right now it's interesting. My work is like, who am I if I'm not their mom? Because I grew up in codependent dynamics. And so I was trained to, I guess, just be faithful, loyal to only a specific set of people, let's call it. And anybody outside of that was like outside of the click, or I don't know. That's not how it was phrased, but that's how I feel looking back, like my perception. And so my job right now is like I do have other people who lift my kids up and who love my kids and who help us raise our kids, you know, my mother-in-law and they're beautiful educators. God bless our teachers, like just we have such a group of people like lifting our kids up, and it's not just me. So, like, I can't be everything to them. I'm not their end-all be-all. And that's also kind of sad, you know. There's also like a grief of like I like thinking back to those baby days and those nursing days, and those, there's a strange part of me that's like, I'm so sad that I'm not gonna have any more babies and nurse. And so the identity work for me today is really still peeling back the layers, like, who am I at the soul? Who is this right for me? Following the synchronicities, following the intuition, listening to my body. Um, and then like, who am I if that I'm not their mom? Because I'm not, I'm always gonna be the woman who birthed them, you know, but I'm not always gonna need to mother them. And and the work of mothering seems all-encompassing. And one day it's gonna end. You know, my youngest is four and a half, like I, and I'm still a ways away. And I'm mentally, emotionally preparing myself for when they kind of fly the nest. And my husband jokes with me. He's like, you never want our kids to move out. I'm like, kind of not, but that's I I understand that that's not exactly healthy. Um, so yeah, it's a lot of like separation and and letting them individuate. My goodness, I didn't have an individual individuation process, which led up to to bring it full circle, you know, my postpartum moment. I really think that that was me like crowning, to use like the birth metaphor, which sounds kind of strange, like crowning into this individuation process for myself. So being here and being me, like here I am, and here they are. And they're all three different, and I have all three different relationships with them. Who am who I am to one kid is not who I am to another kid, and who I am to myself is not who I am to my husband, you know, it's it's this um, we're playing these roles, you know? And so I I just I think of Ram Das, like the spiritual teacher, who's like, first he says we're all walking each other home, which I just love. But also it's like, who are you if you're not a wife? Who are you if you're not a mother? Like always having that, maybe not in the very front of your mind, but always in the back of your mind, like who I am at my core. So that's like my identity work today, which is very deep. Like, I don't do small talk, I'm very awkward at cocktail parties because I'm like, tell me your deepest. Let's go deep for yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:31

I love it. I'm kind of the same way, so I kind of love that. And I love begin with the end in mind, Stephen Covey. My kids actually at their school are doing the seven habits of highly effective people, and I love it. I'm like, let's go, you guys. Um, but same, I think about myself on my deathbed all the time, and I love it. It gives me so much peace because my picture of myself on my deathbed is like I've wrung out the towel, I've given it everything, and I feel good at the end of like I did everything I could. Um, and so that is what drives me every day is like, am I giving it my all? Not burning myself out, not like taking on everything, but like the things I am called to, the things I'm passionate about, am I giving that all of my energy? And it feels good by the end of the day. Um, one thing you mentioned, actually, two things I want to briefly touch on and maybe challenge you a little bit because the the wording you used, mothering will end, it will end. We will all die. So let's just get that baseline there. But while we're alive, it does not end, it shifts. And that's another identity thing where it's like I've heard it said you go from, I can't even remember what it was, to like like hands-on to the coach, to the counselor, and it just shifts and your role shifts, but you will always be irreplaceable and have that spot as a mother. So I wanted to remind moms of that because I know there was this trend on social media that was like, we get 18 summers with our kids, just 18 summers. And it's like, well, then where do they go? Like, what happens after that? We're not allowed to go on a trip with them. Like, let's be real. Like, I intend to travel and see my kids throughout their lives, but um, so that part, and then the other part you mentioned like, I'm sad I'm not gonna have the baby phase and I'm not gonna do the nursing and all of those emotions. Yes, let's feel that, let's feel all of that. However, I wanted to put this into perspective. We are only adding, we're not losing. Everything you've gained in motherhood is still available to you. And when we revisit it, we have the opportunity to feel it, smell it, see it. And our brain doesn't know the difference. And so I will often go back to those memories and sit in them and enjoy them as if they're today. And I always tell myself, I didn't lose that. That's not gone, it's within me. And now I get to add this new thing and this new thing and this new thing. And whenever I want that, I pull it out, you know? And so I think, yes, we won't have the physical, tangible baby to snuggle, but we will always have that and we can always feel those things whenever we call them to mind. You're nodding what's going through your mind.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Like I just love that like an anchor, like an anchor point because our minds are so brilliant and we can meditate to getting to gratitude, and we can envision ourselves being with our newborns, smelling their head, and get that inside that feeling.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

And I can be there, I can be there right here. If I if I sniff and I'm like remembering that, I am right back to that moment. And so I think every phase I'm the same. I get sad at one phase ending, happy for the next phase to start, but I have to remind myself I'm not losing that phase, I'm adding to it. It's all in there, and so oh, it's beautiful. I love that so much.

SPEAKER_01 37:57

Oh, I've never heard it phrased quite like that. That's that's a gift to me and everybody here.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Oh, I love it, Ryan. Okay, Ryan, I don't want to get off this beautiful, soulful conversation, but I do want to hear about you. Like, how did Raising Wild Hearts podcast start? And how did you kind of get into the work that you're doing now?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Love it. So I started my podcast way before I was ready in 2023. And my husband, it was my 40th birthday, and my husband was like, What do you want to do? And I was like, I really don't want to do anything. My baby was my baby, was still a baby, and it was still like postpartum ish, and I was like, I don't really care. And he's like, Well, you've been wanting to start a podcast. I'm gonna buy you some your equipment. You know, I'm gonna buy you some equipment for your birthday. This guy. I know. This guy, I know. Yeah, he's amazing. Uh, so he buys me this podcasting equipment, which I'm still using to this day, and I hit record way before I'm ready. Like, I'm like not ready. I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I really I was homeschooling my big kids and I had a baby, and I was like, I need some adult conversation. Uh and so I just hit record and I started with like people I knew. I'm like just a wonderful educator who I knew. I'm like, oh, she'd be great. You know, so-and-so who I know, oh, she'd be great. And so I started that way and I just like hit record and I was always have been curious, always have been led with like the question why and how come and tell me more, and have always really wanted to go deep. And so I thought, let me just allow myself to go deep and learn and get some adult conversation. And so it was just a passion project, and it still is a passion project, which is funny. Um, and so I just hit record and I just kept going. And so my fourth baby, my podcast, Raising Wild Hearts, just turned three in well, when I turned 43 in February. So yeah, that's how it started.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

That's huge. First of all, girl, come on. I was like, oh, you must be in your 20s. Like, I've got decades on you, and you're telling me you're 43, you son of a gun. You look amazing. Totally, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

You're welcome. Yeah, you do too, please.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Oh, thank you. Yeah, um, but I do want to touch on this thing that you were talking about. You needed something for you because I'm like, in in rational thinking, any would anyone would be like, you're homeschooling, you have three kids, you have a new baby. This is not the time. But no, guys, this is the time. This is the time where we need to find ourselves. Like, what lights us up? And we need to create that time because we're never gonna find it, and we need to start before we're ready. Even yesterday, I was walking with my husband and I was like, I've just published a new book. I'm going on TV tomorrow to talk about it. I'm doing all these things. And I was like, I feel out of my depth every day. And he was like, Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing? And I was like, I think it's a necessary thing. I think whenever you start something new, it's gonna push you and stretch you and be uncomfortable. But we'll get there, you know? And so I was like, I don't see it as like good or bad. I see it as like a necessary part of the process. But I love that you A started before you were ready. B, you were like, I need something outside of mothering and kid and you know, that type of thing. And so you went for it. And whatever your passion is, guys, like it doesn't have to be podcasting. It can be knitting, it can be filmmaking, it can be whatever. But like now's the time. And if you are all hands on deck, like I do not have a second to breathe, think about it, daydream about it. Your brain doesn't know. You can start building the world in your mind. And that way, when you're ready to go, boom, it lands on the paper. Like, don't let it die because there are parts that are just reserved for you. And I love my one of my favorite comedians, Jessica St. Clair, always talks about. She talks to moms who are like, Oh my gosh, my life's gonna end and blah, blah. And she's like, No, you will be so much more creative. Your passions will like burst out of you. Motherhood brings this side of you. Have you noticed that in your own life? That it's like, oh, wait, no, everything's just beginning, everything's blooming. That's how that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 42:15

You do too? Absolutely. Yeah, creativity is one of my North stars. And I believe we're all creative. And it's interesting, like from a body perspective, if you're into the chakras, you know, like our creation lives in our sacral chakra. And that's also like we create actual life, and we're creating our lives, we're creating, if you look around you, like take a minute to look around you, like you've created all of that, you've curated everything you're doing. So, like on a very granular, like we are all creators. And so, what is it that you want to create? And I invite people here to think about their little kid version of themselves because little kid version of me was like making mixtapes, which I was obsessed with. And it's like kind of like broadcasting. I don't know. I always think of that. I'm like, I loved that, and I lost track of time and I loved to perform and I loved to chat. And so, like tuning in to like what little you, what seven-year-old you or eight-year-old you, 10-year-old you loved to do and lost, you know, track of time in. That's like a good, a good key. And I do believe motherhood opens that like no other portal has agreed.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

You know what? I actually I have, and this is my own theory. I haven't read this anywhere, but I feel like by four, just in my own kids and in my own life and talking to other moms, you can kind of see the passions. Yep. And so I'm like, I knew at four I wanted to be an actor. And my sister would be like, You're also a good writer, you could write. And I'm like, I'm doing this. And so um, A, the fact that I get to do it is like mind blowing to me every time. But B, it makes me very aware of my own kids. Like, let me watch what naturally is coming out so I can encourage and like you know, massage those things out of them and help them get to where they need to be to achieve the things that they're meant for. Because I do believe there are certain things in us that we are meant to do in this world, specific to each person. And so I love that you said that. Go back to your inner child. Like, what did they love? What lit them up before there was guilt and shame and expectations and shoulds? Like just unbiased, pure passion. Like, ooh, that's beautiful, Ryan. So tell me now, with the work you do now, the moms you talk with on your podcast and speaking, what's the most rewarding thing that you've gotten from all of this?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Oh, the most rewarding thing I've gotten from this. You know, I would say the relationships. Like I really like having this conversation with you, speaking to the people I do on my podcast. I met a friend two years ago and we do an annual event together called Rise and Flourish uh for women, and um to get like a reset, just like relationships, you know, just really talking to people, getting to know them. Um, yeah, it's the people.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

It's always relationships, right? I love that. And also it just goes to show you, I'm sure you're very learned and you've well read, and I'm sure you know about post-traumatic growth and the meaning we make out of the pain we go through. Can you see that in hindsight of like perhaps this is your calling and what you were meant to do? And that came out of that fire. Does that feel like it for you?

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yes, that feels right. I've never heard that expression, post-traumatic growth. Funny enough. Yeah. Um yes, definitely. Like, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 45:59

It's so good. And it's, I mean, it's what happened to me. And I had an episode called Redemptive Birth because it was literally after my first. Um, you know, there's this old wives' tale, like, oh, you know, your second can heal you. And my pelvic floor therapist would say, like, you know, maybe the second. And I'd be like, no, like my nerves and muscles were shot down there. Like I was terrified to have another kid. Um, and then sure enough, the second one came out, healed me physically, mentally, emotionally, like boom. And I was like, what the heck is this? And somebody sent me an article and was like, oh, look, this is a thing, and it's called redemptive birth. And it's kind of in the same vein of post-traumatic growth, where when you come out of the other side better, you learn and you grow, and it creates meaning for that thing that had pain. But anyway, the the researchers who coined that term and did that study, I had them on the show to talk about that phenomenon and they saw it over and over with women. It was wild. You, if you have time, you should listen to that episode. And they're um both British, and it's a beautiful just listen to their accent for an hour. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

I was I love a British accent. There's a strange thing that I do with my second child, funny enough, where we just speak in a British accent until we drive everybody else in our household crazy. Everybody's like, would you please don't love a British accent?

SPEAKER_00 47:23

Yeah, why not? I'd like let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

Yeah, that's hilarious. My second healed me. That's I've never heard of this. I cannot wait to go back and listen to that episode.

SPEAKER_00 47:32

You should, yeah. It's wild. I was like, and and so right after I read that, I told them, I was like, oh my gosh, I think I had this. And they said, first of all, I'm so sorry that you had to go through that, but um, I'm so glad that you had a redemptive birth. And then it wasn't until years later I was like, oh shoot, I should have them. And then I so anyway, so cool. But Ryan, we are getting to the end of things. I do something a little woo-woo at the end, but before we get to that, will you tell everybody where they can find you and get connected with your podcast?

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Amazing. So you can listen to my podcast wherever you listen to your podcast. I also have a YouTube channel at Raising Wild Hearts. I hang out a little bit on Instagram and LinkedIn. Um, I'm also on Substock. Anyway, okay, I guess I'm in all the places.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Um You're everywhere. I'm everywhere. So just look for Ryan Watkin and I'll put links to everything in the show notes so you guys can find her. Okay, so I'm so happy to hear that you are spiritual and in tune because what I do is every week I pray over my guests and I sit with them for days, if not a week, and just see if I hear anything, if God shows me anything for them. And then I offer that to the to them at the end of the show. And I do feel like I heard something for you. Would it be okay if I shared it? Please. Okay. Okay. So this is so weird to me because I'm like, it seems like you have nailed in, dialed in rest. But what I heard was all about rest. And it said, rest is waiting for you. Don't fight it, surrender. And so that's what I heard. I don't know if that means anything for you or if it's something to put on the shelf for another season, but I do want to remind you that rest is available to you.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Thank you so much. That's so resonant, actually.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Oh, really? Oh, good. Yeah. Well, like you said, we got to put in the work, right? It's a muscle. It's not just gonna happen. So I hope that you're able to create that rest for yourself and find it.

SPEAKER_01 49:37

Thank you so much. I will because I love to work. And I love like I'm like, I'm a generator in human design. So I'm like, I love to work. So but rest is very important. And every time I do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah, it's crazy. It's like we don't realize most of our good work comes out of rest. It never comes out of striving or trying. It's like Thomas Edison used to take a nap with ball bearings in his hands. Have you heard this? No. And then when okay, so he would he famously did not sleep consistently, but throughout the day, he would take these respits where he would nap, sitting up with two ball bearings in his hands. And when they fell, it would wake him up and he would be dreaming something creative and instantly get back to work and put that into practice. And it was like those rest times when our brains can wash themselves and rejuvenate and restart. Then we come out of that with like a burst of fresh creativity and work. So it's actually better, more effective work to rest than to just push, push, push. So who knows? Anyway, I will leave you there. And thank you so much, Ryan, for being on this season five finale. Thank you so much for having me. This was such a gift. Same. And I'm sure we'll stay in touch. I'll talk to you soon. Okay, sounds great. Bye. Bye. This has been the Dead Mother Podcast. Remember, new episodes drop every Tuesday. If you enjoyed today's episode, please leave a review. It really does help. Special thanks to Jose Cerna for our theme music and Katie Legou for our cover art.